Assembly Drawings

[Charles Steinkuehler]

I'm trying to do a PCB layout using KiCad, and I am having problems
creating assembly drawings. This is a SMT board, so typically small
discrete parts like resistors just have a dash on the silkscreen layer,
and the assembly layer contains a box outline of the part with the
reference designator. See any of the standard IPC-7351B chip resistor
or capacitor library parts for typical examples:

http://landpatterns.ipc.org/default.asp

My first problem is there does not appear to be any sort of assembly
layer. It looks basically impossible to add or change layers in KiCad,
so I'm using the F.Adhes and B.Adhes layers instead.

Now I need to get the reference designators plotting on the assembly
(a.k.a. Adhes) layer, but I can't seem to figure out how. It looks like
reference designators will *ONLY* and *EVER* print on the silkscreen
layer. Is that correct?!?

As a work-around, I figured I would try adding attributes to the PCB and
get that text printing on the layer I want, but that doesn't seem to be
possible either!?! Only the Reference and Value fields seem to be
present in the PCB, and any attributes I added in the schematic have
disappeared.

So the final and only solution I can figure out is to just place free
text where I want, which seems like a really bad way to do something as
simple as an assembly drawing.

It feels like I'm missing some big idea of how KiCad is supposed to
work, because it doesn't seem like this should be so hard. Where am I
going wrong?

[Cirilo Bernardo]

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 5:28 AM
Subject: [kicad-users] Assembly Drawings
I'm trying to do a PCB layout using KiCad, and I am having problems
creating assembly drawings.  This is a SMT board, so typically small
discrete parts like resistors just have a dash on the silkscreen layer,
and the assembly layer contains a box outline of the part with the
reference designator.  See any of the standard IPC-7351B chip resistor
http://landpatterns.ipc.org/default.asp
My first problem is there does not appear to be any sort of assembly
layer.  It looks basically impossible to add or change layers in KiCad,
so I'm using the F.Adhes and B.Adhes layers instead.
 

Generally it is not a good idea to use special technical layers for other purposes.

Now I need to get the reference designators plotting on the assembly
(a.k.a. Adhes) layer, but I can't seem to figure out how.  It looks like
reference designators will *ONLY* and *EVER* print on the silkscreen
layer.  Is that correct?!?

Yes. You will have to hack the source or else write a script which copies the refdes as a fixed text onto your adhesive layers.

As a work-around, I figured I would try adding attributes to the PCB and
get that text printing on the layer I want, but that doesn't seem to be
possible either!?!  Only the Reference and Value fields seem to be
present in the PCB, and any attributes I added in the schematic have
disappeared.

Other attributes are used for things such as BOM and they are generally never printed. However, you can edit the visibility of the text and perhaps it will print then; I can't be sure since it's been a few months since I've looked at the code. But once again it will probably go to the silk layer.
 

So the final and only solution I can figure out is to just place free
text where I want, which seems like a really bad way to do something as
simple as an assembly drawing.
 

You can make a script to process the kicad_pcb file to do this; it will be much easier for larger projects.

It feels like I'm missing some big idea of how KiCad is supposed to
work, because it doesn't seem like this should be so hard.  Where am I
going wrong?

You're not missing anything.  There was a long discussion some months ago about layers and our current limitations. Some users regularly use all 16 copper layers and the number of technical layers we have simply isn't enough for modern manufacturing; for example we can't even correctly implement the IPC-7351 land patterns because we don't have enough technical layers available.

If you wish to help out and can create a document showing clearly what extra layers we need and for what purpose, and better still if you're a programmer and can suggest a scheme to achieve this, that would be good. One big part of course is working out a good way to extend KiCad's layers. Lorenzo has his own private branch with 64 layers and that will be useful for most jobs, but to really be in the top list of tools we need an extensible system since some jobs will likely require > 64 layers within the decade.

- Cirilo



------------------------------------

Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-develYahoo Groups Links

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[Charles Steinkuehler]

Post by Cirilo Bernardo
----- Original Message -----

AM Subject: [kicad-users] Assembly Drawings
I'm trying to do a PCB layout using KiCad, and I am having
problems creating assembly drawings. This is a SMT board, so
typically small discrete parts like resistors just have a dash on
the silkscreen layer, and the assembly layer contains a box outline
of the part with the reference designator. See any of the standard
IPC-7351B chip resistor or capacitor library parts for typical
http://landpatterns.ipc.org/default.asp
My first problem is there does not appear to be any sort of
assembly layer. It looks basically impossible to add or change
layers in KiCad, so I'm using the F.Adhes and B.Adhes layers
instead.

Generally it is not a good idea to use special technical layers for other purposes.

Since I can't add layers, which layers _are_ suggested for use as an
assembly layer (or other general purpose mechanical layer)?

Post by Cirilo Bernardo

Now I need to get the reference designators plotting on the
assembly (a.k.a. Adhes) layer, but I can't seem to figure out how.
It looks like reference designators will *ONLY* and *EVER* print on
the silkscreen layer. Is that correct?!?

Yes. You will have to hack the source or else write a script which
copies the refdes as a fixed text onto your adhesive layers.

Hmm...a script seems reasonable. I've been directly hacking the design
files to get around various limitations of KiCad already (particularly
in the area of global component attribute editing). But I was generally
hoping this would be possible without such tricks on the part of the
user. The whole reason I'm using KiCad in the first place is because
it's free (as in speech), but that doesn't really matter if it's not
possible for the typical user to replicate my results. I might as well
just use the free version of Eagle.

Note: I'm not trying to be a PCB layout snob, and have used a variety of
packages for commercial work including: PADS, ORCAD, Workview, Eagle,
PCAD, Protel, Altium, and KiCad. I'm really just trying to get a decent
set of Gerbers, a BOM, and some assembly drawings done for an
open-source hardware project:

http://reprap.org/wiki/CRAMPS

...ideally in an open-source PCB design tool.

Post by Cirilo Bernardo

As a work-around, I figured I would try adding attributes to the
PCB and get that text printing on the layer I want, but that
doesn't seem to be possible either!?! Only the Reference and Value
fields seem to be present in the PCB, and any attributes I added in
the schematic have disappeared.

Other attributes are used for things such as BOM and they are
generally never printed. However, you can edit the visibility of the
text and perhaps it will print then; I can't be sure since it's been
a few months since I've looked at the code. But once again it will
probably go to the silk layer.

<meh>

Post by Cirilo Bernardo

So the final and only solution I can figure out is to just place
free text where I want, which seems like a really bad way to do
something as simple as an assembly drawing.

You can make a script to process the kicad_pcb file to do this; it
will be much easier for larger projects.

It feels like I'm missing some big idea of how KiCad is supposed
to work, because it doesn't seem like this should be so hard.
Where am I going wrong?

You're not missing anything. There was a long discussion some months
ago about layers and our current limitations. Some users regularly
use all 16 copper layers and the number of technical layers we have
simply isn't enough for modern manufacturing; for example we can't
even correctly implement the IPC-7351 land patterns because we don't
have enough technical layers available.

I was afraid this would be the answer I got. Honestly, not being able
to support IPC-7351 in today's world pretty much makes KiCad unusable
for any real work I do. I can patch around the glaring problems for a
tiny open-source board, but expecting anyone to do this for a real
project where productivity matters is asking a bit much, IMHO.

Post by Cirilo Bernardo
If you wish to help out and can create a document showing clearly
what extra layers we need and for what purpose, and better still if
you're a programmer and can suggest a scheme to achieve this, that
would be good. One big part of course is working out a good way to
extend KiCad's layers. Lorenzo has his own private branch with 64
layers and that will be useful for most jobs, but to really be in the
top list of tools we need an extensible system since some jobs will
likely require > 64 layers within the decade.

Well, IMHO, the KiCad layer setup seems most like PCAD, but maybe that's
just because it's what I've used most recently. PCAD might be a good
reference for how to handle a lot of the issues folks have been worried
about with arbitrary layers. Basically, in PCAD you craft layer sets,
and if you copy library parts, snippits from other PCBs, or anything
else that doesn't match your current layer set, you're just SOL.
Basically, each layer has a number, and if layer 100 is silkscreen on
PCB-1 and the assembly drawing on PCB-2, if you copy between them things
get confused.

It really isn't all that bad, since there are predefined layers for most
things (although PCAD predates IPC7351, so no "official" courtyard and
assembly layers), and when adding/modifying library parts there is the
option to load a "design parameters" file, that sets up layer names and
pairings.

Also, I'd really like to see the ability to add attributes to PCB
components and have them print on arbitrary layers. Writing a script to
copy text to a layer is a very poor work-around at best.

Anyway, I'll keep plugging away with the design, and hoping that KiCad
gets over some of it's growing pains soon.

[Andrew Chin]

How applicable is this IPC standard? I mean...how many people actually use
it? Last time I was trying to create a foot print for an Atmel part, it
told me to reference an IPC part for a correct pad layout. I went to the
IPC site and it was just a maze that was terrible to navigate. I ended up
just making my own pad layout from the mechanical drawings.

Post by Charles Steinkuehler

Post by Cirilo Bernardo
----- Original Message -----

AM Subject: [kicad-users] Assembly Drawings
I'm trying to do a PCB layout using KiCad, and I am having
problems creating assembly drawings. This is a SMT board, so
typically small discrete parts like resistors just have a dash on
the silkscreen layer, and the assembly layer contains a box outline
of the part with the reference designator. See any of the standard
IPC-7351B chip resistor or capacitor library parts for typical
http://landpatterns.ipc.org/default.asp
My first problem is there does not appear to be any sort of
assembly layer. It looks basically impossible to add or change
layers in KiCad, so I'm using the F.Adhes and B.Adhes layers
instead.

Generally it is not a good idea to use special technical layers for other purposes.

Since I can't add layers, which layers _are_ suggested for use as an
assembly layer (or other general purpose mechanical layer)?

Post by Cirilo Bernardo

Now I need to get the reference designators plotting on the
assembly (a.k.a. Adhes) layer, but I can't seem to figure out how.
It looks like reference designators will *ONLY* and *EVER* print on
the silkscreen layer. Is that correct?!?

Yes. You will have to hack the source or else write a script which
copies the refdes as a fixed text onto your adhesive layers.

Hmm...a script seems reasonable. I've been directly hacking the design
files to get around various limitations of KiCad already (particularly
in the area of global component attribute editing). But I was generally
hoping this would be possible without such tricks on the part of the
user. The whole reason I'm using KiCad in the first place is because
it's free (as in speech), but that doesn't really matter if it's not
possible for the typical user to replicate my results. I might as well
just use the free version of Eagle.
Note: I'm not trying to be a PCB layout snob, and have used a variety of
packages for commercial work including: PADS, ORCAD, Workview, Eagle,
PCAD, Protel, Altium, and KiCad. I'm really just trying to get a decent
set of Gerbers, a BOM, and some assembly drawings done for an
http://reprap.org/wiki/CRAMPS
...ideally in an open-source PCB design tool.

Post by Cirilo Bernardo

As a work-around, I figured I would try adding attributes to the
PCB and get that text printing on the layer I want, but that
doesn't seem to be possible either!?! Only the Reference and Value
fields seem to be present in the PCB, and any attributes I added in
the schematic have disappeared.

Other attributes are used for things such as BOM and they are
generally never printed. However, you can edit the visibility of the
text and perhaps it will print then; I can't be sure since it's been
a few months since I've looked at the code. But once again it will
probably go to the silk layer.

<meh>

Post by Cirilo Bernardo

So the final and only solution I can figure out is to just place
free text where I want, which seems like a really bad way to do
something as simple as an assembly drawing.

You can make a script to process the kicad_pcb file to do this; it
will be much easier for larger projects.

It feels like I'm missing some big idea of how KiCad is supposed
to work, because it doesn't seem like this should be so hard.
Where am I going wrong?

You're not missing anything. There was a long discussion some months
ago about layers and our current limitations. Some users regularly
use all 16 copper layers and the number of technical layers we have
simply isn't enough for modern manufacturing; for example we can't
even correctly implement the IPC-7351 land patterns because we don't
have enough technical layers available.

I was afraid this would be the answer I got. Honestly, not being able
to support IPC-7351 in today's world pretty much makes KiCad unusable
for any real work I do. I can patch around the glaring problems for a
tiny open-source board, but expecting anyone to do this for a real
project where productivity matters is asking a bit much, IMHO.

Post by Cirilo Bernardo
If you wish to help out and can create a document showing clearly
what extra layers we need and for what purpose, and better still if
you're a programmer and can suggest a scheme to achieve this, that
would be good. One big part of course is working out a good way to
extend KiCad's layers. Lorenzo has his own private branch with 64
layers and that will be useful for most jobs, but to really be in the
top list of tools we need an extensible system since some jobs will
likely require > 64 layers within the decade.

Well, IMHO, the KiCad layer setup seems most like PCAD, but maybe that's
just because it's what I've used most recently. PCAD might be a good
reference for how to handle a lot of the issues folks have been worried
about with arbitrary layers. Basically, in PCAD you craft layer sets,
and if you copy library parts, snippits from other PCBs, or anything
else that doesn't match your current layer set, you're just SOL.
Basically, each layer has a number, and if layer 100 is silkscreen on
PCB-1 and the assembly drawing on PCB-2, if you copy between them things
get confused.
It really isn't all that bad, since there are predefined layers for most
things (although PCAD predates IPC7351, so no "official" courtyard and
assembly layers), and when adding/modifying library parts there is the
option to load a "design parameters" file, that sets up layer names and
pairings.
Also, I'd really like to see the ability to add attributes to PCB
components and have them print on arbitrary layers. Writing a script to
copy text to a layer is a very poor work-around at best.
Anyway, I'll keep plugging away with the design, and hoping that KiCad
gets over some of it's growing pains soon.
--
Charles Steinkuehler

[Charles Steinkuehler]

Post by Andrew Chin
How applicable is this IPC standard? I mean...how many people actually use
it? Last time I was trying to create a foot print for an Atmel part, it
told me to reference an IPC part for a correct pad layout. I went to the
IPC site and it was just a maze that was terrible to navigate. I ended up
just making my own pad layout from the mechanical drawings.

Well, as a PCB designer for a small business since the mid 1980s, it's a
total godsend, IMHO. Get the library browser from here:

http://www.pcblibraries.com/

...where you can browse footprints and use the data to generate parts.

For your Atmel part, typically, a data sheet will list a JEDEC type for
the part body, which you can then cross-reference in the IPC library.

If you pay money, you can calculate footprints for custom part bodies,
but I've never needed to do that. Also, just having a consistent
footprint, orientation, and naming convention is huge, and takes a lot
of guesswork and planning out of making your own library parts.

Anyway, if you build PCBs as part of your business and don't know about
or use IPC7351, you're missing out, IMHO.

However, if you're a large enough business that you have your own
internal standards and a small army of engineers designing your parts
libraries, you probably don't get much benefit.

YMMV

[Karl Schmidt]

Post by Charles Steinkuehler
Well, as a PCB designer for a small business since the mid 1980s, it's a
http://www.pcblibraries.com/
...where you can browse footprints and use the data to generate parts.

There are some notes on tools for creating foot prints here:
http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Pcbnew#Creating_IPC_compliant_modules

Post by Charles Steinkuehler
Anyway, if you build PCBs as part of your business and don't know about
or use IPC7351, you're missing out, IMHO.

Quite true.

You might be able to create the document you want with one of the plot options. - I thought there
was a way to do this - at least at one time.

Right now I'm debugging a Debian build script for the new version - major changes right now - don't
know if it would help with this, but should know soon.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl Schmidt EMail Karl-WH+jy8H4ZDlWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org
Transtronics, Inc. WEB http://xtronics.com
3209 West 9th Street Ph [phone]
Lawrence, KS 66049 FAX [phone]

History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme a lot. -Mark Twain

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-develYahoo Groups Links

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[j***@public.gmane.org]

This looks realy useful.

[Chris Fryer]

<*>[Attachment(s) from Chris Fryer included below]

I'm having trouble with some x3d files that I've created with blender
and am using as kicad 3d packages (see LPF-C011303S.x3d).


The file imports into kicad fine and appears straight on the kicad 3d
view (see kicad_3d_view.png).


When I export as vrml, though and import the board into blender, most
parts are fine but this part (and some others) are crooked (see
blender_x3d_import.png).


I'm using (2014-4-28 BZR 4837)-product on Ubuntu 14.04LTS.


Regards
Chris




<*>Attachment(s) from Chris Fryer:

<*> 2 of 2 Photo(s) https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/kicad-users/attachments/420874083;_ylc=X3oDMTJyOGZuZDQwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE2MDI3Njk4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzI4MTk0MgRzZWMDYXR0YWNobWVudARzbGsDdmlld09uV2ViBHN0aW1lAzEzOTg3OTk2MTY-
<*> kicad_3d_view.png
<*> blender_x3d_import.png

------------------------------------

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Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-develYahoo Groups Links

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[Cirilo Bernardo]

________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 4:42 AM
Subject: [kicad-users] 3d package comes out crooked [2 Attachments]
 
[Attachment(s) from Chris Fryer included below]
I'm having trouble with some x3d files that I've created with blender
and am using as kicad 3d packages (see LPF-C011303S.x3d).
The file imports into kicad fine and appears straight on the kicad 3d
view (see kicad_3d_view.png).
When I export as vrml, though and import the board into blender, most
parts are fine but this part (and some others) are crooked (see
blender_x3d_import.png).
I'm using (2014-4-28 BZR 4837)-product on Ubuntu 14.04LTS.

Install and try 'view3dscene' to see if this is a problem with Blender. Blender has an awful VRML processor; of all the software I've tried, Blender has the least compliant and the most buggy implementation. If you have the same problem in view3dscene then I will need a minimal board which demonstrates the problem + your x3d model so I can replicate the issue. It is possible that the bug is in the VRML exporter; the 3D viewer and exporter do not share much code.

- Cirilo



------------------------------------

Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
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[Chris Fryer]

Thanks Cirilo.

It looks like a problem with Blender (and I thought blender beyond
reproach :-[ ).

View3dscene renders the board correctly, as does FreeCAD. Since FreeCAD
was my original destination (I didn't realise it imported wrl) then my
problem is fixed :-) .

Regards
Chris

Post by Cirilo Bernardo

________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 4:42 AM
Subject: [kicad-users] 3d package comes out crooked [2 Attachments]
[Attachment(s) from Chris Fryer included below]
I'm having trouble with some x3d files that I've created with blender
and am using as kicad 3d packages (see LPF-C011303S.x3d).
The file imports into kicad fine and appears straight on the kicad 3d
view (see kicad_3d_view.png).
When I export as vrml, though and import the board into blender, most
parts are fine but this part (and some others) are crooked (see
blender_x3d_import.png).
I'm using (2014-4-28 BZR 4837)-product on Ubuntu 14.04LTS.

Install and try 'view3dscene' to see if this is a problem with
Blender. Blender has an awful VRML processor; of all the software I've
tried, Blender has the least compliant and the most buggy
implementation. If you have the same problem in view3dscene then I
will need a minimal board which demonstrates the problem + your x3d
model so I can replicate the issue. It is possible that the bug is in
the VRML exporter; the 3D viewer and exporter do not share much code.
- Cirilo

[Cirilo Bernardo]

________________________________
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [kicad-users] Assembly Drawings
 
How applicable is this IPC standard? I mean...how many people actually use it? Last time I was trying to create a foot print for an Atmel part, it told me to reference an IPC part for  a correct pad layout. I went to the IPC site and it was just a maze that was terrible to navigate. I ended up just making my own pad layout from the mechanical drawings.

For people making simple circuits and assembling by hand, conformance to IPC-7351 is not important at all. For people making much more complex designs and manufacturing many thousands of boards it's very helpful. The extra technical layers which most KiCad users will never use aid with a number of things such as checking for ease of assembly or even solderability with a particular soldering technique. For me, KiCad needs to deal with these things eventually so that more professional design workshops adopt it and hopefully contribute to enhancements. For the more experienced hobbyists many of these features will also be useful (or even essential) for projects as more businesses offer affordable 1-off assembly services. What's good for some people isn't necessarily good enough for others; this is one reason various companies and individuals continue to improve KiCad.

As for Atmel directing you to use an 'IPC part', I don't even know what that means. If you pay for the standard you get an IPC land pattern calculator which *might* work on your system and if you're extra lucky it will even create a file which your CAD can use, but otherwise you have to find a footprint which someone else had already created or else read through the standard and design your own.

- Cirilo



------------------------------------

Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
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