[kicad-users] Creating and Filling Copper Zones in KiCAD

['Bob Bell' [e-mail] [kicad-users]]

Most esteemed colleagues:



With all your help over the past 24 hours, I thought I had this figured out
and was ready to move on. However, upon zooming out so the entire board
filled my screen, I became aware of a distinct diagonal line in the fill
pattern on the B.CU layer. I have a screen-shot below showing this
phenomenon, which is a bit more pronounced with the F.Cu layer hidden. The
line seems to go from the upper left to the lower right, and, looking
closely where the copper fill ends at the line, there are several places
where one has ask - why didn't it fill here? And why are the ends of the
fill forming such a uniform pattern? My board layout is not at all like the
pattern I see here. Unless I still have a setting wrong, this seems to
point to an odd idiosyncrasy in the copper fill algorithms.







Further, zooming in sufficiently along this line, I see yet another odd
artifact. Where the copper fill does not stop improperly, there is what
appears to me to be a hairline crack in the copper pour:







Add we can see how that strange crack goes the whole way to the corner of
the board:







Does anyone have any clues to these oddities? Gee, I hope it's something
stupid I'm doing.



I'm a bit nervous sending this out for fab without at least some sort of
plausible explanation, if not a fix that corrects the odd hairline and the
copper pour terminations along the line.



Thanks for all your help!



Bob Bell

[Clemens Koller [e-mail] [kicad-users]]

Hi, Bob!


Can you share this design?
And tell on which Kicad version you are working on?


I would try to dissect the pcb to see if there is some diagonal
line in the data causing this behaviour. Or if it is simply a
bug which needs to be tracked down.


Don't send out the data to the pcb mfg if you don't have to. :-)


Regards,


Clemens

With all your help over the past 24 hours, I thought I had this figured out and was ready to move on. However, upon zooming out so the entire board filled my screen, I became aware of a distinct diagonal line in the fill pattern on the B.CU layer. I have a screen-shot below showing this phenomenon, which is a bit more pronounced with the F.Cu layer hidden. The line seems to go from the upper left to the lower right, and, looking closely where the copper fill ends at the line, there are several places where one has ask – why didn’t it fill here? And why are the ends of the fill forming such a uniform pattern? My board layout is not at all like the pattern I see here. Unless I still have a setting wrong, this seems to point to an odd idiosyncrasy in the copper fill algorithms.
Does anyone have any clues to these oddities? Gee, I hope it’s something stupid I’m doing.
I’m a bit nervous sending this out for fab without at least some sort of plausible explanation, if not a fix that corrects the odd hairline and the copper pour terminations along the line.
Thanks for all your help!
Bob Bell

[Jorge Ferreira [e-mail] [kicad-users]]

Hi

Yes, it looks like one first necessary diagonal in the top left region
was, somehow, propagated along othe similar structures (between DIP
footprints).

Indeed it looks something like an algorithm bug.

Best regards
Jorge

Post by 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
With all your help over the past 24 hours, I thought I had this
figured out and was ready to move on. However, upon zooming out so
the entire board filled my screen, I became aware of a distinct
diagonal line in the fill pattern on the B.CU layer. I have a
screen-shot below showing this phenomenon, which is a bit more
pronounced with the F.Cu layer hidden. The line seems to go from the
upper left to the lower right, and, looking closely where the copper
fill ends at the line, there are several places where one has ask –
why didn’t it fill here? And why are the ends of the fill forming
such a uniform pattern? My board layout is not at all like the
pattern I see here. Unless I still have a setting wrong, this seems
to point to an odd idiosyncrasy in the copper fill algorithms.
Further, zooming in sufficiently along this line, I see yet another
odd artifact. Where the copper fill does not stop improperly, there
Add we can see how that strange crack goes the whole way to the corner
Does anyone have any clues to these oddities? Gee, I hope it’s
something stupid I’m doing.
I’m a bit nervous sending this out for fab without at least some sort
of plausible explanation, if not a fix that corrects the odd hairline
and the copper pour terminations along the line.
Thanks for all your help!
Bob Bell

['Bob Bell' [e-mail] [kicad-users]]

Thanks for all the responses to my most recent inquiry.

I will attempt to reply to all questions and suggestions here in one email:



Rick, I see your point about making the Gerber files, but I don’t know what
a Gerber file looks like or how it would help me see if the diagonal line is
there or not.



David, I have done re-fills on the zones, but I did not delete and re-create
them. I’ll try that – it won’t take but a couple minutes.



Jorge, I didn’t know a feature existed to change the thermal relief pattern.
I’ll have a look at that and see if causes the C60 GND pad to connect to the
pour.



John, I’m not inclined to do a complete re-route. As David has suspected,
yes I did route this board manually. This is the first board I have done in
KiCAD. Previous EDA systems I used absolutely sucked when it came to
auto-routing (too many reasons to discuss here), so I’ve developed a bit of
acumen with manual routing. However, now that it is manually routed, I
might just make a copy of the project and submit it to the freerouter to see
how it goes. If I don’t like it, I can just stick with my manually routed
board. On to your suggestion: what do you suspect on my board could cause
such a strange copper pour pattern?



Clemens, I would be glad to share the design files. Can you suggest the
best method for that?

The KiCAD version I am using is 4.0.0-rc1-stable.



Again, many thanks to an old-timer coming out of retirement to have some
fun.



Bob Bell





From: kicad-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kicad-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 3:44 PM
To: kicad-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [kicad-users] Creating and Filling Copper Zones in KiCAD





Hi

Yes, it looks like one first necessary diagonal in the top left region was,
somehow, propagated along othe similar structures (between DIP footprints).

Indeed it looks something like an algorithm bug.

Best regards
Jorge





Às 01:59 de 13-01-2016, 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
escreveu:



Most esteemed colleagues:



With all your help over the past 24 hours, I thought I had this figured out
and was ready to move on. However, upon zooming out so the entire board
filled my screen, I became aware of a distinct diagonal line in the fill
pattern on the B.CU layer. I have a screen-shot below showing this
phenomenon, which is a bit more pronounced with the F.Cu layer hidden. The
line seems to go from the upper left to the lower right, and, looking
closely where the copper fill ends at the line, there are several places
where one has ask – why didn’t it fill here? And why are the ends of the
fill forming such a uniform pattern? My board layout is not at all like the
pattern I see here. Unless I still have a setting wrong, this seems to
point to an odd idiosyncrasy in the copper fill algorithms.







Further, zooming in sufficiently along this line, I see yet another odd
artifact. Where the copper fill does not stop improperly, there is what
appears to me to be a hairline crack in the copper pour:







Add we can see how that strange crack goes the whole way to the corner of
the board:







Does anyone have any clues to these oddities? Gee, I hope it’s something
stupid I’m doing.



I’m a bit nervous sending this out for fab without at least some sort of
plausible explanation, if not a fix that corrects the odd hairline and the
copper pour terminations along the line.



Thanks for all your help!



Bob Bell

[Clemens Koller [e-mail] [kicad-users]]

Hello, Bob!

Rick, I see your point about making the Gerber files, but I don’t know
what a Gerber file looks like or how it would help me see if the diagonal
line is there or not.

You simply use pcbnew:File->Plot to output your board layers to Gerber.
You can view the files with Kicads own Gerber Viewer.
(An also very good program is GerbV from the gEDA project:
http://gerbv.geda-project.org/
(Would love to see the functionalities of both programs
in one tool... both are really good.))

If you have this line/issues ending up in the Gerber, your
PCB manufacturer will have to deal with it and will very
likely complain (if he cares).

However, now that it is manually routed, I might just make a
copy of the project and submit it to the freerouter to see how
it goes.

I wouldn't waste much time with autorouters. I haven't seen
a properly autorouted design even with tons of rules setup and
tweaked in 5digitnumber$ tools for a long time. And if the
quality was "okay" it took about the same time to setup
all the rules as if it would have taken to routed the
board by hand.

The only good thing about autorouters are (also only when
setup properly) to get a quick answer where the
difficulties in the layout might rise.

Clemens, I would be glad to share the design files.
Can you suggest the best method for that?

Simply, File->Archive the project and attach the ZIP in
an email to me directly if you are ok with that.

The KiCAD version I am using is 4.0.0-rc1-stable.

Ok, I hope it's not relevant, but which platform are you on?
(I am on Linux only.)
I can go back & forth in my kicad-git and compile your
version and see if it's a bug in only one version or
if it's a problem in the design itself.

I can recreate this odd behaviour, there is way to debug
it, I bet.

Regards,

Clemens


------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel
------------------------------------

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['Bob Bell' [e-mail] [kicad-users]]

Clemens,

I am running under Windows.
In PCBNew, I don't have File/Archive.
Could I just zip the whole project directory? Would you be able to unzip
and open the design with those files?

Bob Bell


-----Original Message-----
From: kicad-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kicad-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 6:33 PM
To: kicad-***@yahoogroups.com; 'S100Computers'
Subject: Re: [kicad-users] Creating and Filling Copper Zones in KiCAD

Hello, Bob!

Rick, I see your point about making the Gerber files, but I don't know
what a Gerber file looks like or how it would help me see if the
diagonal line is there or not.

You simply use pcbnew:File->Plot to output your board layers to Gerber.
You can view the files with Kicads own Gerber Viewer.
(An also very good program is GerbV from the gEDA project:
http://gerbv.geda-project.org/
(Would love to see the functionalities of both programs in one tool... both
are really good.))

If you have this line/issues ending up in the Gerber, your PCB manufacturer
will have to deal with it and will very likely complain (if he cares).

However, now that it is manually routed, I might just make a copy of
the project and submit it to the freerouter to see how it goes.

I wouldn't waste much time with autorouters. I haven't seen a properly
autorouted design even with tons of rules setup and tweaked in 5digitnumber$
tools for a long time. And if the quality was "okay" it took about the same
time to setup all the rules as if it would have taken to routed the board by
hand.

The only good thing about autorouters are (also only when setup properly) to
get a quick answer where the difficulties in the layout might rise.

Clemens, I would be glad to share the design files.
Can you suggest the best method for that?

Simply, File->Archive the project and attach the ZIP in an email to me
directly if you are ok with that.

The KiCAD version I am using is 4.0.0-rc1-stable.

Ok, I hope it's not relevant, but which platform are you on?
(I am on Linux only.)
I can go back & forth in my kicad-git and compile your version and see if
it's a bug in only one version or if it's a problem in the design itself.

I can recreate this odd behaviour, there is way to debug it, I bet.

Regards,

Clemens


------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your
question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of
Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your
symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the
kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel
------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

[Clemens Koller [e-mail] [kicad-users]]

Hello, Bob,

Post by 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
In PCBNew, I don't have File/Archive.
Could I just zip the whole project directory? Would you be able to unzip
and open the design with those files?

The archiving function is in kicad only - and not in pcbnew:
File -> Archive
It does essentially the same what you intend to do as well: zip the
essential files of your project directory... :-)

Regards,

Clemens


------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel
------------------------------------

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<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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<*> Your email settings:
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<*> To change settings online go to:
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['Bob Bell' [e-mail] [kicad-users]]

A solution!

First, I tried re-creating the copper zones, as was suggested, but that made
no difference. I still got the diagonal line and cut-off pours.
Then I deleted the zones again, but started the zones from the lower left of
the board instead of the lower right.
I don't know why it would make a difference, but the strange diagonal line
is gone, and those places that should have had copper now do.
I'm not trying to understand this, but if I see this happen again, I'll note
where I started my pour zone polygons.

Unless some other quirk rears up, I think I'm ready to output the files and
get this sent off.

So, one last question:

I have lost contact with the PCB houses I used in my commercial design days
(20 years ago now).
I know John Monahan likes to use PCBCart in China.
But I would like to know if you have a favorite PCB house and what their
pros and cons are.
I'll be going for a small quantity, say 4 or 5 for now, as prototypes.
There are no fancy cutouts other than the edge connector.
If the edge connector can be gold-plated, that would be great, but I suppose
for a prototype I can live without it.
It would be nice to have these quicker than what the turn is from China, and
keeping it in the USA would be nice.

Your suggestions?

Thanks for your help and conversation.

Bob Bell





-----Original Message-----
From: kicad-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kicad-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 6:33 PM
To: kicad-***@yahoogroups.com; 'S100Computers'
Subject: Re: [kicad-users] Creating and Filling Copper Zones in KiCAD

Hello, Bob!

Rick, I see your point about making the Gerber files, but I don't know
what a Gerber file looks like or how it would help me see if the
diagonal line is there or not.

You simply use pcbnew:File->Plot to output your board layers to Gerber.
You can view the files with Kicads own Gerber Viewer.
(An also very good program is GerbV from the gEDA project:
http://gerbv.geda-project.org/
(Would love to see the functionalities of both programs in one tool... both
are really good.))

If you have this line/issues ending up in the Gerber, your PCB manufacturer
will have to deal with it and will very likely complain (if he cares).

However, now that it is manually routed, I might just make a copy of
the project and submit it to the freerouter to see how it goes.

I wouldn't waste much time with autorouters. I haven't seen a properly
autorouted design even with tons of rules setup and tweaked in 5digitnumber$
tools for a long time. And if the quality was "okay" it took about the same
time to setup all the rules as if it would have taken to routed the board by
hand.

The only good thing about autorouters are (also only when setup properly) to
get a quick answer where the difficulties in the layout might rise.

Clemens, I would be glad to share the design files.
Can you suggest the best method for that?

Simply, File->Archive the project and attach the ZIP in an email to me
directly if you are ok with that.

The KiCAD version I am using is 4.0.0-rc1-stable.

Ok, I hope it's not relevant, but which platform are you on?
(I am on Linux only.)
I can go back & forth in my kicad-git and compile your version and see if
it's a bug in only one version or if it's a problem in the design itself.

I can recreate this odd behaviour, there is way to debug it, I bet.

Regards,

Clemens


------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your
question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of
Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your
symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the
kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel
------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

[Erik Lane [e-mail] [kicad-users]]

Oshpark does an excellent job, and is very local to me here in Portland,
Oregon. Laen is wonderful to work with, and a pleasure to do business with.

https://oshpark.com/

Good luck,
Erik

Post by 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
A solution!
First, I tried re-creating the copper zones, as was suggested, but that made
no difference. I still got the diagonal line and cut-off pours.
Then I deleted the zones again, but started the zones from the lower left of
the board instead of the lower right.
I don't know why it would make a difference, but the strange diagonal line
is gone, and those places that should have had copper now do.
I'm not trying to understand this, but if I see this happen again, I'll note
where I started my pour zone polygons.
Unless some other quirk rears up, I think I'm ready to output the files and
get this sent off.
I have lost contact with the PCB houses I used in my commercial design days
(20 years ago now).
I know John Monahan likes to use PCBCart in China.
But I would like to know if you have a favorite PCB house and what their
pros and cons are.
I'll be going for a small quantity, say 4 or 5 for now, as prototypes.
There are no fancy cutouts other than the edge connector.
If the edge connector can be gold-plated, that would be great, but I suppose
for a prototype I can live without it.
It would be nice to have these quicker than what the turn is from China, and
keeping it in the USA would be nice.
Your suggestions?
Thanks for your help and conversation.
Bob Bell
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: [kicad-users] Creating and Filling Copper Zones in KiCAD
Hello, Bob!

Rick, I see your point about making the Gerber files, but I don't know
what a Gerber file looks like or how it would help me see if the
diagonal line is there or not.

You simply use pcbnew:File->Plot to output your board layers to Gerber.
You can view the files with Kicads own Gerber Viewer.
http://gerbv.geda-project.org/
(Would love to see the functionalities of both programs in one tool... both
are really good.))
If you have this line/issues ending up in the Gerber, your PCB manufacturer
will have to deal with it and will very likely complain (if he cares).

However, now that it is manually routed, I might just make a copy of
the project and submit it to the freerouter to see how it goes.

I wouldn't waste much time with autorouters. I haven't seen a properly
autorouted design even with tons of rules setup and tweaked in
5digitnumber$
tools for a long time. And if the quality was "okay" it took about the same
time to setup all the rules as if it would have taken to routed the board by
hand.
The only good thing about autorouters are (also only when setup properly) to
get a quick answer where the difficulties in the layout might rise.

Clemens, I would be glad to share the design files.
Can you suggest the best method for that?

Simply, File->Archive the project and attach the ZIP in an email to me
directly if you are ok with that.

The KiCAD version I am using is 4.0.0-rc1-stable.

Ok, I hope it's not relevant, but which platform are you on?
(I am on Linux only.)
I can go back & forth in my kicad-git and compile your version and see if
it's a bug in only one version or if it's a problem in the design itself.
I can recreate this odd behaviour, there is way to debug it, I bet.
Regards,
Clemens
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your
symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the
kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Steve Burton [e-mail] [kicad-users]]

Post by Erik Lane ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
Oshpark does an excellent job, and is very local to me here in
Portland, Oregon. Laen is wonderful to work with, and a pleasure to do
business with.
https://oshpark.com/
Good luck,
Erik
A solution!
First, I tried re-creating the copper zones, as was suggested, but that made
no difference. I still got the diagonal line and cut-off pours.
Then I deleted the zones again, but started the zones from the lower left of
the board instead of the lower right.
I don't know why it would make a difference, but the strange diagonal line
is gone, and those places that should have had copper now do.
I'm not trying to understand this, but if I see this happen again, I'll note
where I started my pour zone polygons.
Unless some other quirk rears up, I think I'm ready to output the files and
get this sent off.
I have lost contact with the PCB houses I used in my commercial design days
(20 years ago now).
I know John Monahan likes to use PCBCart in China.
But I would like to know if you have a favorite PCB house and what their
pros and cons are.
I'll be going for a small quantity, say 4 or 5 for now, as prototypes.
There are no fancy cutouts other than the edge connector.
If the edge connector can be gold-plated, that would be great, but I suppose
for a prototype I can live without it.
It would be nice to have these quicker than what the turn is from China, and
keeping it in the USA would be nice.
Your suggestions?
Thanks for your help and conversation.
Bob Bell
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: [kicad-users] Creating and Filling Copper Zones in KiCAD
Hello, Bob!

Post by 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
Rick, I see your point about making the Gerber files, but I

don't know

Post by 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
what a Gerber file looks like or how it would help me see if the
diagonal line is there or not.

You simply use pcbnew:File->Plot to output your board layers to Gerber.
You can view the files with Kicads own Gerber Viewer.
http://gerbv.geda-project.org/
(Would love to see the functionalities of both programs in one tool... both
are really good.))
If you have this line/issues ending up in the Gerber, your PCB manufacturer
will have to deal with it and will very likely complain (if he cares).

Post by 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
However, now that it is manually routed, I might just make a

copy of

Post by 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
the project and submit it to the freerouter to see how it goes.

I wouldn't waste much time with autorouters. I haven't seen a properly
autorouted design even with tons of rules setup and tweaked in 5digitnumber$
tools for a long time. And if the quality was "okay" it took about the same
time to setup all the rules as if it would have taken to routed the board by
hand.
The only good thing about autorouters are (also only when setup properly) to
get a quick answer where the difficulties in the layout might rise.

Post by 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
Clemens, I would be glad to share the design files.
Can you suggest the best method for that?

Simply, File->Archive the project and attach the ZIP in an email to me
directly if you are ok with that.

Post by 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
The KiCAD version I am using is 4.0.0-rc1-stable.

Ok, I hope it's not relevant, but which platform are you on?
(I am on Linux only.)
I can go back & forth in my kicad-git and compile your version and see if
it's a bug in only one version or if it's a problem in the design itself.
I can recreate this odd behaviour, there is way to debug it, I bet.
Regards,
Clemens
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your
question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of
Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to
contribute your
symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the
kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

I've used OSH Park and they are easy, low-cost and (usually) reliable.

Steve.

[Clemens Koller [e-mail] [kicad-users]]

Hi, Bob!

Post by 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
A solution!

Great... but still we don't know why there was that diagonal line
in the first place? :-(

Post by 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
Unless some other quirk rears up, I think I'm ready to output the files and
get this sent off.

Yes, but have a look at your Gerber output before you send them out.

Post by 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
I have lost contact with the PCB houses I used in my commercial design days
(20 years ago now).
I know John Monahan likes to use PCBCart in China.

I recommend you to checkout one or two local PCB manufacturers in your
case where you live in the same timezone and can easily pickup the phone
and have a chat if there are things to adjust.
They should offer a pooling service as you run very low volume
(protoype production).

When you get into complex designs with matched impedances,
tolerances, filled, blind, microvias, $$$tuff, you really
need to get to know your manufacturer's capabilities and how
to feed them reliably with all the detailed information they
need. This is where I definitely prefer local manufacturers.

Regards,

Clemens


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