Discussion:
[kicad-users] Making mounting holes - unplated
Ormund Williams ormundw@panix.com [kicad-users]
2016-04-12 01:23:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi,


What is the correct method of making mounting holes in KiCAD?, the
instructions I've found give poor results.
--
Ormund
Pedro Martin pkicad@yahoo.es [kicad-users]
2016-04-12 20:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ormund,

There isn't a right method, there are methods that work and each one has
his own.

I make a footprint with a single through-hole pad. In pcbnew, I add this
footprint as many times as holes I need.
I don't add the component to the schematic, just to the layout.

The hole footprint can be plated or non-plated depending on your needs.

Regards,
Pedro.
Post by Ormund Williams ***@panix.com [kicad-users]
Hi,
What is the correct method of making mounting holes in KiCAD?, the
instructions I've found give poor results.
--
Ormund
ttait@vantimeng.com [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 01:05:39 UTC
Permalink
Most of the low-cost low-volume hobbyist PCB shops (oshpark, elecrow, etc) do not support unplated holes in multilayer boards as it affects the cost. They must run a secondary drill pass after plating. Unless it is important the holes not be plated I would just let the plate (and of course provide pad with sufficient annular ring).

Tim
'Bob Bell' bbell770@gmail.com [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 01:26:01 UTC
Permalink
My recent prototype and small production run of boards went through Elecrow, and I had no problem at all specifying NPT holes. I just put them in a separate file and indicated in the ordering comments that the file was included. No extra charge, and it worked fine. I have found Elecrow to have a good product, they are easy to work with, and they get the boards made and shipped in about 2 weeks at a very reasonable price. Some US fab house needs to figure out how they do it, so we can go back to buying USA.



Bob Bell





From: kicad-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kicad-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 9:06 PM
To: kicad-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [kicad-users] Making mounting holes - unplated





Most of the low-cost low-volume hobbyist PCB shops (oshpark, elecrow, etc) do not support unplated holes in multilayer boards as it affects the cost. They must run a secondary drill pass after plating. Unless it is important the holes not be plated I would just let the plate (and of course provide pad with sufficient annular ring).

Tim
ttait@vantimeng.com [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 03:33:18 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, yes you are right Elecrow does support it (though it is still a 2nd pass). I just used them for the 1st time, boards came back this week and were quite nice. It's kind of funny how the shipping cost almost as much as the boards (but it is still a good deal).

Still many low cost quick-turn proto shops don't support NPH so I generally don't use them for home projects.

Tim
gnuarm.2007@arius.com [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 03:53:46 UTC
Permalink
I took a look at Elecrow but their web site seems to be broken. The link from Google gives a 404 error and when I find the menu link to the PCB Prototype page that says, "PCB service is temporarily not develop Browse,we will upload the PCB order page soon". I'm not sure what that means. So I clicked on a link for 4 layer ENIG boards and started to fill in the form, but the layers selections are only 1 and 2!

Are these guys for real? How do you place an order or get a price?

Rick C


---In kicad-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Sorry, yes you are right Elecrow does support it (though it is still a 2nd pass). I just used them for the 1st time, boards came back this week and were quite nice. It's kind of funny how the shipping cost almost as much as the boards (but it is still a good deal).

Still many low cost quick-turn proto shops don't support NPH so I generally don't use them for home projects.

Tim
Erik Lane eriklane@gmail.com [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 18:17:05 UTC
Permalink
OSHPark is a US based service, which uses a US fab house. They say 12
calendar days until shipped, but last time I used them I had it in my hands
within the 12 days. Of course, it helps that they're based here in
Portland, Oregon, so shipping for me is next day. They use first class
postal mail, at least to me, so I would assume shipping would be fairly
quick anywhere in the states. I'm very happy with them, and I've been using
them for years. I've never tried Elecrow, so I can't compare them.

Erik
Post by 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users]
My recent prototype and small production run of boards went through
Elecrow, and I had no problem at all specifying NPT holes. I just put
them in a separate file and indicated in the ordering comments that the
file was included. No extra charge, and it worked fine. I have found
Elecrow to have a good product, they are easy to work with, and they get
the boards made and shipped in about 2 weeks at a very reasonable price.
Some US fab house needs to figure out how they do it, so we can go back to
buying USA.
Bob Bell
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2016 9:06 PM
*Subject:* Re: [kicad-users] Making mounting holes - unplated
Most of the low-cost low-volume hobbyist PCB shops (oshpark, elecrow, etc)
do not support unplated holes in multilayer boards as it affects the cost.
They must run a secondary drill pass after plating. Unless it is important
the holes not be plated I would just let the plate (and of course provide
pad with sufficient annular ring).
Tim
IW News news@imagedworld.com [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 18:42:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I have just tried drawing a hole in Edge_cuts. The hole is rendered
perfectly but if a track is traced across the hole it is accepted by
KiCad, there are no DRC warnings or errors. Take care!

Iñigo.
Peter Bennett peterbb@telus.net [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 19:17:24 UTC
Permalink
I place pads on my mounting holes, with the pad diameter the same size
as the mounting hardware - this ensures that I can't run tracks too
close to the mounting hole.
Post by IW News ***@imagedworld.com [kicad-users]
Hi,
I have just tried drawing a hole in Edge_cuts. The hole is rendered
perfectly but if a track is traced across the hole it is accepted by
KiCad, there are no DRC warnings or errors. Take care!
Iñigo.
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vpsboat.org
gnuarm.2007@arius.com [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 19:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Someone earlier said they added mounting holes to the layout without adding them to the schematic. So I guess they become 1 pad components. I prefer to include *everything* on a layout in the schematic. That makes it easy to run a check to make sure the layout and schematic are always in sync. Adding mounting holes to a schematic is not a terrible idea anyway. They often serve as connection points to the chassis ground.

Rick


---In kicad-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

I place pads on my mounting holes, with the pad diameter the same size
as the mounting hardware - this ensures that I can't run tracks too
close to the mounting hole.
Post by IW News ***@imagedworld.com [kicad-users]
Hi,
I have just tried drawing a hole in Edge_cuts. The hole is rendered
perfectly but if a track is traced across the hole it is accepted by
KiCad, there are no DRC warnings or errors. Take care!
Iñigo.
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel
------------------------------------
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--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vpsboat.org http://vpsboat.org
Oz-in-DFW lists@ozindfw.net [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 21:47:58 UTC
Permalink
I do this two different ways, but both end up with a schematic element.
I don't like PCB-only elements because I regularly re-import and change
netlists during layout , allowing modules to change and be deleted.

The technique I use most frequently is to use the CONN_1 module in the
schematic and specify an appropriate footprint. I have footprints for a
range of SAE and Metric mounting holes with large and small washer
profiles. All are plated through. The CONN_1 module usually ends up
connected to ground or a no-connect. I put "Mechanical' in the
description field and use that to strip them from the BoM. I do the
same for jumper patterns that don't actually mount parts. One mutlisheet
schematics I usually put these on a separate and last page along with
things like stitch vias and overall notes.

The alternative I use is to build a board outline and hole pattern in a
footprint. This has the disadvantage of making DRC go nuts because you
are putting parts on top of parts. It has the advantage of a cleaner
schematic and automating the process for common outlines like those that
fit in packages or mount a daughterboard like a Raspberry Pi.

As a variant of the second option I have a number of footprints that are
only on the edge, drawing and silkscreen layers. These have drawing
layer targets for connectors and holes as well as silkscreen for
outlines and label text. I have a few I've done that include mating
connector footprint elements, but I prefer having the connector as a
discrete item for the BoM.

As to plated vs not, I /almost /always use plated, isolated pads instead
of non-plated. In the rare cases I've need non-plated I check with the
vendor and determine their preference. In the case of Oshpark this is
specifying copper smaller than the hole size. I've done the same thing
with Elecrow and they'd not complained. My readme file explained what I
was doing. I needed unplated holes for the guide pins of a modular
(aka RJ45) connector. I did plated slots on the same board using the
oval hole option in the pad description.

Oz, in DFW
Post by ***@arius.com [kicad-users]
Someone earlier said they added mounting holes to the layout without
adding them to the schematic. So I guess they become 1 pad
components. I prefer to include *everything* on a layout in the
schematic. That makes it easy to run a check to make sure the layout
and schematic are always in sync. Adding mounting holes to a
schematic is not a terrible idea anyway. They often serve as
connection points to the chassis ground.
Rick
--
mailto:***@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)
IW News news@imagedworld.com [kicad-users]
2016-04-15 04:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Nice trick.
It looks like tracks can be traced out of the PCB boundaries too.
I don't know if it is the desired behavior but it seems a bug to me.

Iñigo.
Post by Peter Bennett ***@telus.net [kicad-users]
I place pads on my mounting holes, with the pad diameter the same size
as the mounting hardware - this ensures that I can't run tracks too
close to the mounting hole.
Post by IW News ***@imagedworld.com [kicad-users]
Hi,
I have just tried drawing a hole in Edge_cuts. The hole is rendered
perfectly but if a track is traced across the hole it is accepted by
KiCad, there are no DRC warnings or errors. Take care!
Iñigo.
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting
your question.
Post by IW News ***@imagedworld.com [kicad-users]
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the
creator of Kicad.
Post by IW News ***@imagedworld.com [kicad-users]
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to
contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
Post by IW News ***@imagedworld.com [kicad-users]
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit
the kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel
Post by IW News ***@imagedworld.com [kicad-users]
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vpsboat.org
'Bob Bell' bbell770@gmail.com [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 20:53:15 UTC
Permalink
OSHPark has a decent reputation for quality, though I have never tried them. However, I cannot pay 4 times the cost, which is the outcome of research in February. Years ago, I had a prototype fab less than 10 miles away. I used them a lot until they became significantly more expensive than higher volume houses elsewhere in the states. Now the same thing has happened to all the US fabs – they are pricing themselves out of business. I might be willing to pay 25% more to keep the fab in the state, but the very existence of some projects is jeopardized by high PCB costs. I have almost no recourse to go to China.



Bob Bell





From: kicad-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kicad-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 2:17 PM
To: kicad-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [kicad-users] Making mounting holes - unplated





OSHPark is a US based service, which uses a US fab house. They say 12 calendar days until shipped, but last time I used them I had it in my hands within the 12 days. Of course, it helps that they're based here in Portland, Oregon, so shipping for me is next day. They use first class postal mail, at least to me, so I would assume shipping would be fairly quick anywhere in the states. I'm very happy with them, and I've been using them for years. I've never tried Elecrow, so I can't compare them.

Erik



On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 6:26 PM, 'Bob Bell' ***@gmail.com [kicad-users] <kicad-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



My recent prototype and small production run of boards went through Elecrow, and I had no problem at all specifying NPT holes. I just put them in a separate file and indicated in the ordering comments that the file was included. No extra charge, and it worked fine. I have found Elecrow to have a good product, they are easy to work with, and they get the boards made and shipped in about 2 weeks at a very reasonable price. Some US fab house needs to figure out how they do it, so we can go back to buying USA.



Bob Bell





From: kicad-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kicad-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 9:06 PM
To: kicad-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [kicad-users] Making mounting holes - unplated





Most of the low-cost low-volume hobbyist PCB shops (oshpark, elecrow, etc) do not support unplated holes in multilayer boards as it affects the cost. They must run a secondary drill pass after plating. Unless it is important the holes not be plated I would just let the plate (and of course provide pad with sufficient annular ring).

Tim
Mark Goldberg marklgoldberg@gmail.com [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 06:01:02 UTC
Permalink
Oshpark can also make nonplated holes. Check their site for info.

Mark
Post by ***@vantimeng.com [kicad-users]
Most of the low-cost low-volume hobbyist PCB shops (oshpark, elecrow, etc)
do not support unplated holes in multilayer boards as it affects the cost.
They must run a secondary drill pass after plating. Unless it is important
the holes not be plated I would just let the plate (and of course provide
pad with sufficient annular ring).
Tim
Clemens Koller cko@embeon.de [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 07:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Hello!

Plated (slightly OT, but...):
One thing I noted when I get plated-though-holes (PTH) manufactured is that
it helps the pcb manufacturer on a pcb with 4+ layers to add or keep annular
rings on the inner layers as well (copper diameter = hole radius +0.2mm)
even when there is no need for an electrical connection on these layers.

This helps the plating process and stabilized the walls of the holes.
In case the desmearing process is not perfect, the annular rings help
to keep the plating in place.

Attached is a picture which shows an issue with desmearing and without
annular rings on the inner layers. The plating ripped.

Unplated:
As a logical consequence, you don't need these annular rings on
inner layers for NPTs. Here, you actually want some clearance
(hole radius +0.2mm) depending on insulation distances you need.


For some designs it's ok to have all holes plated. So I allow the
board house to keep the plating based on their capabilities and how
they can deal with PTHs without annular rings on the layers.

The details (ENIG, HASL, HAL finish, ...) matter also lot, here.

Regards,

Clemens
Post by Pedro Martin ***@yahoo.es [kicad-users]
Hi Ormund,
There isn't a right method, there are methods that work and each one has
his own.
I make a footprint with a single through-hole pad. In pcbnew, I add this
footprint as many times as holes I need.
I don't add the component to the schematic, just to the layout.
The hole footprint can be plated or non-plated depending on your needs.
Regards,
Pedro.
Post by Ormund Williams ***@panix.com [kicad-users]
Hi,
What is the correct method of making mounting holes in KiCAD?, the
instructions I've found give poor results.
--
Ormund
Alexei Dolganov adolganov@gmail.com [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 07:13:51 UTC
Permalink
I often create mounting holes as cutouts in edge-cuts layer.
Oshpark didn't have problems fabricating these.
 
[Attachment(s) from Clemens Koller included below]
Hello!
One thing I noted when I get plated-though-holes (PTH) manufactured is that
it helps the pcb manufacturer on a pcb with 4+ layers to add or keep annular
rings on the inner layers as well (copper diameter = hole radius +0.2mm)
even when there is no need for an electrical connection on these layers.
This helps the plating process and stabilized the walls of the holes.
In case the desmearing process is not perfect, the annular rings help
to keep the plating in place.
Attached is a picture which shows an issue with desmearing and without
annular rings on the inner layers. The plating ripped.
As a logical consequence, you don't need these annular rings on
inner layers for NPTs. Here, you actually want some clearance
(hole radius +0.2mm) depending on insulation distances you need.
For some designs it's ok to have all holes plated. So I allow the
board house to keep the plating based on their capabilities and how
they can deal with PTHs without annular rings on the layers.
The details (ENIG, HASL, HAL finish, ...) matter also lot, here.
Regards,
Clemens
Post by Pedro Martin ***@yahoo.es [kicad-users]
Hi Ormund,
There isn't a right method, there are methods that work and each one has
his own.
I make a footprint with a single through-hole pad. In pcbnew, I add this
footprint as many times as holes I need.
I don't add the component to the schematic, just to the layout.
The hole footprint can be plated or non-plated depending on your needs.
Regards,
Pedro.
Post by Ormund Williams ***@panix.com [kicad-users]
Hi,
What is the correct method of making mounting holes in KiCAD?, the
instructions I've found give poor results.
--
Ormund
Attachment(s) from Clemens Koller | View attachments on the web
1 of 1 Photo(s)
X5-broken-top-small.jpg
________________________________
Giovanni Spinotti spino@obliquid.it [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 10:11:26 UTC
Permalink
sorry for the OT, just had my first elecrow boards delivered yesterday
(used oshpark before). I was surprised by the shipping times, as stuff
from china to italy is usually in the 3 to 5+ weeks ballpark, these
arrived cheaply and swiftly, oddly enough through deutsche post.
they had no problems with slotted pads (oshpark didn't do them).
my 2 cents is that oshpark has a bit more quality and cool factor, but
for the price I had 4 times the boards and they seem really ok. They
also answered a question I had within 24h.

sp
Post by ***@vantimeng.com [kicad-users]
Sorry, yes you are right Elecrow does support it (though it is still
a 2nd pass). I just used them for the 1st time, boards came back this
week and were quite nice. It's kind of funny how the shipping cost
almost as much as the boards (but it is still a good deal).
Still many low cost quick-turn proto shops don't support NPH so I
generally don't use them for home projects.
Tim
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

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Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
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Jeff Miller jeffarcy@yahoo.com [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 14:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Please, what does "OT" mean?

Sent from my iPhone
Post by Giovanni Spinotti ***@obliquid.it [kicad-users]
sorry for the OT, just had my first elecrow boards delivered yesterday
(used oshpark before). I was surprised by the shipping times, as stuff
from china to italy is usually in the 3 to 5+ weeks ballpark, these
arrived cheaply and swiftly, oddly enough through deutsche post.
they had no problems with slotted pads (oshpark didn't do them).
my 2 cents is that oshpark has a bit more quality and cool factor, but
for the price I had 4 times the boards and they seem really ok. They
also answered a question I had within 24h.
sp
Post by ***@vantimeng.com [kicad-users]
Sorry, yes you are right Elecrow does support it (though it is still
a 2nd pass). I just used them for the 1st time, boards came back this
week and were quite nice. It's kind of funny how the shipping cost
almost as much as the boards (but it is still a good deal).
Still many low cost quick-turn proto shops don't support NPH so I
generally don't use them for home projects.
Tim
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel
------------------------------------
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Andy Eskelson andyyahoo@g0poy.co.uk [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 14:55:48 UTC
Permalink
OT:

Off Topic

A comment that is not directly related to the subject of the thread, but
may be of interest (or not)

:-)

Andy


On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 07:01:03 -0700
Post by Jeff Miller ***@yahoo.com [kicad-users]
Please, what does "OT" mean?
Sent from my iPhone
Post by Giovanni Spinotti ***@obliquid.it [kicad-users]
sorry for the OT, just had my first elecrow boards delivered yesterday
(used oshpark before). I was surprised by the shipping times, as stuff
from china to italy is usually in the 3 to 5+ weeks ballpark, these
arrived cheaply and swiftly, oddly enough through deutsche post.
they had no problems with slotted pads (oshpark didn't do them).
my 2 cents is that oshpark has a bit more quality and cool factor, but
for the price I had 4 times the boards and they seem really ok. They
also answered a question I had within 24h.
sp
Post by ***@vantimeng.com [kicad-users]
Sorry, yes you are right Elecrow does support it (though it is still
a 2nd pass). I just used them for the 1st time, boards came back this
week and were quite nice. It's kind of funny how the shipping cost
almost as much as the boards (but it is still a good deal).
Still many low cost quick-turn proto shops don't support NPH so I
generally don't use them for home projects.
Tim
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Jeff Miller jeffarcy@yahoo.com [kicad-users]
2016-04-14 17:31:11 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Andy 😏
Jeff

Sent from my iPhone
Post by Andy Eskelson ***@g0poy.co.uk [kicad-users]
Off Topic
A comment that is not directly related to the subject of the thread, but
may be of interest (or not)
:-)
Andy
On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 07:01:03 -0700
Post by Jeff Miller ***@yahoo.com [kicad-users]
Please, what does "OT" mean?
Sent from my iPhone
Post by Giovanni Spinotti ***@obliquid.it [kicad-users]
sorry for the OT, just had my first elecrow boards delivered yesterday
(used oshpark before). I was surprised by the shipping times, as stuff
from china to italy is usually in the 3 to 5+ weeks ballpark, these
arrived cheaply and swiftly, oddly enough through deutsche post.
they had no problems with slotted pads (oshpark didn't do them).
my 2 cents is that oshpark has a bit more quality and cool factor, but
for the price I had 4 times the boards and they seem really ok. They
also answered a question I had within 24h.
sp
Post by ***@vantimeng.com [kicad-users]
Sorry, yes you are right Elecrow does support it (though it is still
a 2nd pass). I just used them for the 1st time, boards came back this
week and were quite nice. It's kind of funny how the shipping cost
almost as much as the boards (but it is still a good deal).
Still many low cost quick-turn proto shops don't support NPH so I
generally don't use them for home projects.
Tim
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit http://www.kicadlib.org for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the kicad-devel group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-devel
------------------------------------
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